The challenge of nutrition science – Diet Doctor Podcast

The challenge of nutrition science – Diet Doctor Podcast

Nutrition science is difficult to conduct and often even more difficult to interpret. That can make it confusing for individuals deciding what to eat or clinicians deciding what diet to recommend. Science journalist Gary Taubes and nutritional epidemiologist Deirdre Tobias provide different perspectives on the strength and future of nutrition science.

Table of content
0:00 Introduction
3:12 Gary Taubes
5:13 NuSI and the motivation behind it
11:09 The significance of the studies from NuSI
19:09 Challenges with the energy balance study
26:34 Polarization in the world of nutrition
32:26 The difficulties of conducting a nutrition science research
43:16 Learnings from past histories of NuSI
49:52 Deirdre Tobias, PhD
51:58 Nutritional epidemiology vs randomized control trials
57:21 The strength of the evidence and recommendation
1:06:31 The long-withstanding challenges of nutrition
1:15:50 Conclusion

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  1. Ron Emmerson on February 1, 2023 at 6:29 am

    Thank God for Gary he has forced the health community to take nutrition serious. The world is a better place!

  2. Bid Now on February 1, 2023 at 6:31 am

    "Dr. Deirdre Tobias is an obesity and nutritional epidemiologist at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital and Harvard Medical School in Boston. She received her doctorate and postdoctoral training at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA. Dr. Tobias was appointed the Academic Editor for the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 2019. Her research focuses on the role of diet and lifestyle for obesity and its major chronic diseases, including gestational diabetes and type 2 diabetes, and has been published in leading peer-reviewed journals including the New England Journal of Medicine and Journal of the American Medical Association. She contributes to the development and analyses of healthful dietary patterns, metabolomics, and nutrition epidemiologic methods, and is co-Instructor of Nutritional Epidemiology at the Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health.

    BA, 2005, Premed, psychology
    College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, MA

    MSc, 2009, Epidemiology
    Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA

    ScD, 2011, Nutritional Epidemiology; Epidemiology
    Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA"

    I am not familiar with the breadth and depth of work that Dr. Tobias has amassed in her young career. However, I am somewhat reticent to believe that she will be able to quickly or radically improve the "science" emerging from the Harvard cabal. Her commentary indicates her position that epidemiologists basically need to "massage the data" to present meaningful results. Sorry. Given what I know of Ancel Keys, etc. etc. etc., I think that nutritional research leadership has moved out of the United States.

    When Twitter emojis become a key factor in progressing "the Science," then one has to wonder. Hopefully, Dr. Kevin Hall has improved his Twitter techniques over the years to encompass this key trait as well. Lord knows he practices there enough, even if his Supervisor doesn’t.

  3. Richard Monroe on February 1, 2023 at 6:33 am

    Big deal. Eat less, loose weight. Calories in calories out.

  4. Dean Martin on February 1, 2023 at 6:33 am

    Its something thats not recognized much I dont think but the ability to talk in a manner that isn’t irritating is such an important part of getting a message across. Prime example is Jordan Peterson. Most people of his stature are impossible to listen to even if they could put the same thoughts together as he is capable of. Your guest is border line. 70% of what he is trying to say is bound up in poor delivery. Lazy, pompous and unpracticed.

  5. Amanda RGR on February 1, 2023 at 6:35 am

    Well that explains a lot. What a mess, I had such high hopes going in. 😔😔😔😔😔

  6. drncube03@gmail. com on February 1, 2023 at 6:35 am

    Im glad to recommend Dr Ncube to anyone who is suffering from HIV/AIDS. He has the treatments and cure to any type of sickness and infections. Skin infections treatment…..

  7. Casmige on February 1, 2023 at 6:36 am

    UIC, ‘83 Biology & Nutritive Sciences
    Our professor had us follow (& this was before computers So it was laborious) Clinically obese Olympian & Triathletes.

    After 2-years of following their diet, writing it all down every week, calculating their caloric intake & expenditure?

    Our final exam for the class was the professor asking a simple question for discussion:

    These athletes? Very dedicated in what they do exercising every day in order to attain to a seriously embarked upon athletic & endeavour & goal,

    Are you going to suggest or recommend that they exercise more or eat less?.

    It’s been a lifelong study but I can tell you that it’s beyond epigenetic’s & even calories-in calories-out: as one who eats only once a day (OMaD) a decidedly vegan vegetarian adherence no sugar no candy no soda no crap processed food while still maintaining 200 pounds on a 5’10” 60 year old frame.

    Yet?, I have nonalcoholic fatty liver condition.

    No consumption of sugar ever, no sweets, no pre-packaged processed foods, no sodas..

    What would anybody suggest that I cut back on? Broccoli?, salad?, Maybe the bundles of asparagus that I like to eat raw?

    High-fructose corn syrup plays a part in it all, as does perhaps lack of Microdosing of essential nutrients from our soil.

    Hell, Even back in the early 80’s we mused whether or not obesity could be a viral induced morbidity or condition.

    I’m telling you we have it all wrong & will never know the correct answer because just as 1-virus affects 1-person mildly & differently & the very same virus affects the next person catastrophically?

    Food & diet is similar in scope & recompense….

    There is no 1-size fit all & there can’t be…
    & you guys just sitting there with your highfalutin commiserating & discussion just to sell books is frankly professionally despicable.

  8. rawmilk mike on February 1, 2023 at 6:37 am

    6:40 We were blaming the victims of bad dietary advice. Weight gain started many years ago with telling healthy women they’re fat. This caused yo-yo starvation dieting and weight gain. Then some snake-oil salesman told them to go low fat plant-based and their health went right down the toilet. And this scenario continues to this very day. Humans can live on plants. (And neither can gorillas.)

  9. Mick McMenemy on February 1, 2023 at 6:40 am

    1:08:00 "We all need to eat carbs" Deirdre Tobias, PhD. This statement was not challenged. Carbohydrates from food is NOT essential.

  10. Joy80 on February 1, 2023 at 6:40 am

    Keep on preaching Gary.
    You have saved alot of people from deaths door.
    The AMA will never admit they are wrong.

  11. Ethan on February 1, 2023 at 6:40 am

    Kevin Hall does great studies then ignores his own data then preaches anti low carb pro low fat dogma. This is why nutrition science cannot progress as an evidence based discipline. It is all about confirming dogma and ignoring contrary results.

  12. S W on February 1, 2023 at 6:41 am

    It’s still unclear to me what and how much fat you are supposed to eat once you have a positive CAC score and when you don’t need to lose weight. The presumption seems to be that you’ll be on an endless weight loss cycle -lose-rebound-lose rebound….what’s maintain? For older people, short-term trials are only helpful for short term goals. Younger people are developing obesity before they even start school-it’s not taking years to develop.

  13. odontomatix on February 1, 2023 at 6:42 am

    This discussion very much reminds me of the last line in the novel "The Great Gatsby": "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."

  14. Lisa Gayhart on February 1, 2023 at 6:43 am

    Two greats talking great stuff

  15. N Nero on February 1, 2023 at 6:44 am

    I’m a huge Taubes fan and his most endearing quality is his sense of integrity. He owns his own mistakes and has a good attitude about recovering from them. He’s a model of how to do science right. . . .

  16. Watcher World on February 1, 2023 at 6:45 am

    Gary’s comments are somewhat disheartening.

    After listening to YouTube videos on nutrition continuously for 11 months now. My only conclusion is that I need to evaluate all the advice based on my blood glucose measurements. Lately, my fasting blood glucose has been moving higher again. I wonder if this low carb diet is starting to fail me. It appears that after getting good results initially, the body adjusted itself to return my blood glucose back to some set point. Regardless of my fasting blood glucose, I no longer get high glucose spikes after meals because I stop eating high carb. I suppose that is something.

  17. David Winebrenner Jr on February 1, 2023 at 6:46 am

    When you start to get real scientists on instead of hacks like Gary, I will be interested. CIM is bunk and has been disproven over and over. Yet you still give this guy a voice. You should have asked Gary why he has never gotten in a ward to prove once and for all that CIM is true. He won’t because he knows that he would have lost fat when in a proven and sustained deficit. More charlatans out of LCHF. More science back in.

  18. Jessica Johnson on February 1, 2023 at 6:47 am

    These guys are just so smart! ❤️. Thank you for all you do. You are saving lives🙏

  19. Laura Williams on February 1, 2023 at 6:47 am

    Here is a hint: Don’t eat altered processed food that comes in a box, bag, or package. Fixed.

  20. drncube03@gmail. com on February 1, 2023 at 6:49 am

    Im glad to recommend Dr Ncube to anyone who is suffering from HIV/AIDS. He has the treatments and cure to any type of sickness and infections. Skin infections treatment…..

  21. LowCarbLowDrama on February 1, 2023 at 6:50 am

    At the beginning of 2020, I was "doing everything right" by the PHARMA medicine – consume low fat, no butter, more margarine, more vegetable oils, low calories, high carbs, sugar’s fine, fruit juices are fine, barely a kilo/2 lbs of meat a weak and the rest of it.

    I had my blood tests done in April 2020 and started doing LOW CARB KETO. My Apo B in April 2020 was 193 MG/DL (1.93 g/l).
    Fast forward to February 2022, my Apo B is now 150 MG/DL (1.5 g/l). Trending in the right direction.

    Hang on, isn’t this supposed to go BAD when you’re consuming high fat, high saturated fats according to mainstream PHARMA modern medicine? RUBBISH!!!

  22. Gwen on February 1, 2023 at 6:51 am

    Gary Taubes saved my life.

  23. Creating Visual on February 1, 2023 at 6:51 am

    Simply brilliant!👏

  24. Ekondig G on February 1, 2023 at 6:52 am

    49:13 "You don’t need the experiments to know whether or not a ketogenic diet works for you… the world is full of people who it doesn’t matter if obesity is an energy balance disorder or a hormonal disorder, they found that they could basically reverse it and reverse it and the complications that go with it… by eating a certain way".
    My experience.

  25. Iss on February 1, 2023 at 6:54 am

    @49 min Gsry hits the nail on the head. Same point Dr Fung always makes: if it works for you, studies aren’t necessary.

  26. Rosy Loves Learning on February 1, 2023 at 6:55 am

    Love these two men. We are all blessed. Thank you. 🙏🏼

  27. Loving It On Keto on February 1, 2023 at 6:58 am

    (Harry here) I’ve found that standard doctors do not expand their knowledge past graduate school. for that reason, I usually FIRE my DOCTORS. I’ve done this quite often. I found that when I changed off the SAD diet and went over to a more ketogenic-type diet it changed EVERYTHING. That’s why We push it so much.

  28. Anthony Kennedy on February 1, 2023 at 7:00 am

    Why should a country need Dietary Guidelines when they place all responsibility on the individual? That being the case, adopt your own diet and take responsibility for it. Low carb works for me. That’s all I care about because that is all I can control. The choice is yours. If you are fat and sick than, like many others, look for alternative diets. The choice, and therefore the responsibility is yours. Gary Taubes was the first of many to open my eyes to the conventional high carb bullshit.

  29. Iss on February 1, 2023 at 7:01 am

    Basically, this is a cautionary tale for Dave Feldman…

  30. Jordan Daniel on February 1, 2023 at 7:03 am

    I wonder if the title The Case For Keto is a shout-out to The Case For Christ or simply coincidence.

  31. chaz wyman on February 1, 2023 at 7:03 am

    Gary Taubes, Robert Lustig and Jason Fung helped me lose 45lbs last year. What is special about this is that I have been on a calories restrictive diet nearly every year since 1974. Each time it always ended the same way lose weight; stay HUNGRY, get tired and fed up; obsessed with calories and eating, only to gradually put it all back on and more. By the time I was 61 I had prediabetes a heart condition, on seven meds, and 254lbs. Fasting with KETO meant I reversed the prediabetes, no more heart pain, ended 3 and lowered 1 meds.. I breathe better, sinusitis better, athletes foot gone, skin tags gone. BUT MOST OF ALL . I kept the weight off and have never really been hungry all year long. Screw will power – you cannot beat hunger over time. You have to adjust those hormones, and keto with IF is the only thing that has worked in over 45 years of trying. Having only one or two meals a day and avoiding carbs is my new way of life, and it is the easiest thing to follow.

  32. Cyndi Manka on February 1, 2023 at 7:04 am

    The biggest thing I did for my health was get processed foods out of my life

  33. matthew stroud on February 1, 2023 at 7:10 am

    Listening to Gary reminded me of the Libet study on consciousness. Such a complex field, where a result is used wrongly to make conclusions about human free will, by people that advocated for the absence free will in the first place. In fact, Libet’s experiments weren’t even testing free will.

  34. jacob brasher on February 1, 2023 at 7:10 am

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  35. Fred Cory on February 1, 2023 at 7:12 am

    Gary vindicated Dr. Atkins in 2002 in that amazing feature in the NYT just in the nick of time before Atkins died in 2003. The persecution of Atkins’ person and his work continued. Gary taught me critical thinking and the gospel of Occam’s Razor which has helped to hone my bullshit detector in the major themes of our times such as climate change, Covid, and Wokism. 20 years later I remain a disturber of the peace and accept the slings and arrows common to all whistleblowers.

  36. Azim Khusal on February 1, 2023 at 7:13 am

    Maybe they should do the studies in a poor country where it should be cheap, after all people there work all day for a couple of dollar’s a day. Use local scientists and people, maybe in China where they can get thing’s done.

  37. matthew stroud on February 1, 2023 at 7:14 am

    It could be fair to say that it is shown from the studies that "those people that ate red meat, on average, had a higher chance of some types of cancer". What this doesn’t do though, is tell us anything about red meat or anything else those people ate. That is where journalists get all this stuff so wrong and mislead the non-expert public.

  38. Dr. AJ on February 1, 2023 at 7:18 am

    Great conversation / video. Need more of these videos. Public needs to understand there are no perfect studies. There are huge holes in nutritional science. My med school pushed low fat. My PhD school pushed vegan and vegetarian diets…. Pushing a narrative is evil, money and government control.

  39. Tom Andersen on February 1, 2023 at 7:18 am

    Love Gary and his honestly approach – can’t say the same about nutritional epidemiologists trying to defend the worst of the data mining studies as useful 🙂

  40. See Sharp on February 1, 2023 at 7:19 am

    Bret, is there something going on with the auto-focus of the camera? It seems like the camera can’t keep up with you 🙂

    I’m wondering about 2 things:
    1. is nutrition science actually a thing, or is it a way to give highly educated people a meaningful job?
    2. do we need nutrition science? It seems like that the ones who came before us did quite well by eating real food.

  41. Tammy B on February 1, 2023 at 7:20 am

    I have been a huge fan of Gary taubes since reading ‘Why We Get Fat … ‘ which changed my life. I was very excited about the start of NUSI and was constantly checking their website and looking to help crowdfund with them; however, there was never any information on social media or on their website about this crowdfunding, nor a way to contact them, it seemed like it wasn’t managed well which I think may be the reason why it didn’t get any farther or get as much backing as it needed. I realized Dr. Attia and Gary Taubes are extremely busy people but they should have had the resources behind the social media to push forward from the beginning, if they had they may have faired better.

  42. Armands Riekstiņš on February 1, 2023 at 7:22 am


  43. K M on February 1, 2023 at 7:22 am

    Yes! I’ve read Gary Taubes book, " Why we get fat" at least three times! Probably need to get the other one. He made a lot of sense!

  44. R. David Young on February 1, 2023 at 7:23 am

    Humbling how much I take for granted. I 💚 this YouTube channel. Thank you.

  45. sean griffiths on February 1, 2023 at 7:23 am

    I really wish someone would do the high dose vitamin C studies we so desperately need. Every study done with vitamin c has used small doses, and certainly not orthomolecular doses. Animals produce vitamin c in their body and a goat for example can produce anywhere between 13g and 100g in 24 hours depending on the body’s requirements at the time. They come and say that only 1g of vitamin c is enough , for humans, but it’s grossly wrong, and again we desperately need studies to verify the works of people like Dr Klenner and DRr Cathcart etc

  46. Lucius Verus on February 1, 2023 at 7:23 am

    I really enjoyed both of these interviews but I think that it s a 100% correct just as you suggested we have to see what works for us individually I found that intermittent fasting 16/8, 18/6, 24 36 hour fasts all of those can contribute to much better biomarkers certainly they have for me just in the last year so ultimately it probably will be an individual Experiment after gathering all of the information that your channel provides and other good channels provide and assessing for ourselves what works and what doesn’t thank you again

  47. Christine on February 1, 2023 at 7:23 am

    Thank you so much 😊

  48. Dawn Elder on February 1, 2023 at 7:25 am

    My husband had 3 strokes and we found out he was diabetic 13 years ago. For eight months I put him on the diet they gave me. Every 3 weeks both he and his blood work were worse. It hit me that the nutritional advice that had failed me for decades was failing my husband. I had been starving myself fat on 1200 low fat, high fibre calories a day for decades. Could barely fit a size 18. High triglycerides. Degenerative bone disease in my right foot. High blood pressure. Body temp 95 in the morning.
    That was 13 years ago. I watched Taubes lecture and read his book. I also watched The Oiling of America.
    I used the old British diet in the prologue of Good Calories, Bad Calories.
    Two weeks after changing our diets my husband had his first improvement in bloodwork. Several months later a stranger understood him.
    I dropped from a 18 to a 6/8 over time and healed all my health problems.
    Twelve years later and we are both doing great. I would never return to low fat hell. I am mid 60s and have no meds for anything. Normal morning body temperature. I can hope on the foot with the Degenerative bone disease.
    Taubes book is a life saver. I was suppose to be a widow about a decade ago.

  49. Michael Butterfield on February 1, 2023 at 7:25 am

    I find 90 minutes hard the fit in my day. Can different participants be split.